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Looking for common ground. I hear even honey is against vegan principles because it takes unfair advantage of the bees. This is ridiculous to me -- partly because the bees usually aren't harmed in the process and partly because I just can't empathize with bugs.

Granted, if you're knocking down wild beehives and making them rebuild, I could see how that is a little mean (still don't care but I can see it). But most honey comes from beekeepers who love their bees, manage their hive, and try to keep the bee population healthy. Most of the animal cruelty that goes on there comes from the female bees.

So, are you honey hater? And if you aren't, could we go one step further and say it's not that problematic to eat crickets and the like, since, you know, they're just bugs?

Looking for common ground. I hear even honey is against vegan principles because it takes unfair advantage of the bees. This is ridiculous to me -- partly because the bees usually aren't harmed in the process and partly because I just can't empathize with bugs. Granted, if you're knocking down wild beehives and making them rebuild, I could see how that is a little mean (still don't care but I can see it). But most honey comes from beekeepers who love their bees, manage their hive, and try to keep the bee population healthy. Most of the animal cruelty that goes on there comes from the female bees. So, are you honey hater? And if you aren't, could we go one step further and say it's not that problematic to eat crickets and the like, since, you know, they're just bugs?

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Disclosure I’m not a vegan: however I would say you can’t eat honey and be a vegan insects are animals by definition so you can’t consume their products.

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True, true. I just find it very strange that vegans won't eat that. The way farmers fatten up animals for slaughter -- I could see how that tugs on some heartstrings. Bees? Fuck, they kill half of their hive every year just to save energy.

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Here's a good video explaining honey: https://hooktube.com/watch?v=AvV_vGFJa6s

However, if insects and bees aren't sentient, then there's no problem with eating their products. We're not super sure if they're sentient or not, so most vegans err on the side of caution.

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lol'd at 1:38

Ok, so then bees do go through some pain in order for us to have honey. I'm still pretty ok with using them like this. Nothing to do with whether I think they're sentient. I just don't empathize with them so I don't mind.

Originally I was thinking this might be the barrier that prevents us from ever seeing eye to eye. Because if one of us empathizes with insects and the other doesn't, there's pretty little we can do to reconcile our values. But it sounds like you don't really empathize with insects, but maybe instead you avoid harming them out of some moral principal that nothing sentient should be harmed. I'll pick up where I left off on your other comment.

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Let me ask you this: if you had absolutely no need to kill an insect/bee, do you think it would be wrong to kill it?

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No. For the same reason I wouldn't have a problem killing an animal I didn't need to kill. Which thread should we be in? This one or ?