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Again, that's why the Seven Councils are seven and not five or nine - those are the early councils confirmed by the reigning pontiff.

The reason Orthodoxy is often referred to as the “Church of the Seven Councils” is because of an acknowledgment that those were completed while the Ecumene was intact. But it’s not an affirmation that only those councils are authoritative. Not quite as often, but occasionally you’ll hear Traditional Orthodox refer to the “Nine Ecumenical Councils”, because the Photian and the Palamite Councils are regarded as the 8th and the 9th - and they’re regarded as every bit as authoritative as the first Seven within the Orthodox Communion. There are also other Local Councils which are also imbued with Magisterial authority.

Usually, you can tell the intention of an Orthodox author if they repeatedly call us the “Church of the Seven Councils”. They’re usually (not always) ecumenists, which are regarded as heretical amongst the Trads (myself included). Likewise, when an Orthodox talks about the Nine Ecumenical Councils, they’re usually pretty hardcore.

Because of the very natures of the 8th and 9th Councils, it’s fairly obvious to see why there’s such religious and spiritual divergence between the two Communions.

From my eyes, and the eyes of my Communion whom I’ve spoken to about this, both of these Councils have plenty of Patristic and Scriptural support, and a great many Saints affirming them, and they’re perfectly natural to us. Consequently, when we view Papal declarations from after the Schism, they look ridiculous to us. I’m fairly certain the feeling is mutual. You’ve probably got mountains of evidence supporting your view, too, and it’s probably baffling to you why we can believe these things.

This has characterized my entire experience of participation within Christendom. To my eyes, the Orthodox side is far more consistent with my religious and spiritual sensibilities, completing all the pressing questions I came to the Faith with. By saying this, I’m not suggesting that my personal opinion about it determines the Truth. What I’m saying is that Orthodoxy better satisfies what my soul was lacking prior to Christianity. A transition to Papism would imply walking away from that, for spurious reasons at best.

Therefore I don’t see the need to “make the switch”. I don’t see any real reason to take seriously the claims that my Communion is “lacking” or “defective”. I can appreciate the light that the Latin perspective shined on the Magisterium, but it doesn’t somehow convince me that we’re “without” that.

Despite the political troubles that rumble throughout the Orthodox World, it’s obvious to me that the Communion of Faith is not lacking any essential mechanism for the self-preservation. If the contemporary Latin understanding of the Magisterium is so necessary, where’s the evidence? Where’s the fruit? What exactly is the Papacy doing that we are not ? It looks like there’s absolutely enormous and fundamental rifts in the Confession of Faith amongst all those who Commune with Rome.

If the contemporary Roman Magisterium is so good at maintaining doctrinal unity, where’s the evidence of that? It really seems like the only good coming from the Latins are bright stars like Cardinal Burke or E. Michael Jones. And they are there, but I see no reason to believe these represent mainstream Catholic opinion, but are instead “voices crying out in the wilderness”.

So what exactly is it that the Papal system is doing, which shows that the Orthodox are defective ?

Both our teams can point to Protestantism, and the ridiculous fracturing into tens of thousands of competing jurisdiction, and see exactly what’s wrong with it.

And you’ve pointed to the jurisdictional chaos, about which I’m no fan, but I’ve argued that it has very little effect on the Orthodox Faith. Hundreds of millions of people agreeing about the Consensus of the Holy Fathers is a really big deal. Especially without some Supreme Pontiff to enforce it.

How are we defective, exactly ?

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Hundreds of millions of people agreeing about the Consensus of the Holy Fathers is a really big deal. Especially without some Supreme Pontiff to enforce it.

It's easy to agree on matters already settled, like the hypostatic union, Trinity, etc. Affirming the Creed, I admit, can be done without a Pope.

But we don't have a Pope for the past, but for the present.

It was the advent of plastic condoms and the birth control pill that presented the need for an authoritative ruling on the morality of contraception. Catholics have this much-needed ruling in Humanae Vitae. The Orthodox have disagreement, and no universal ruling. The same is true for any other number of contemporary moral issues. We can say that the "big questions" like the natures of Christ, were already answered in the early Church, and so that's all we need. But my answer to this is twofold: 1) these contemporary moral issues, while lesser in significance or profundity than matters of the divine nature, still pertain to mortal sin and thus to salvation; and 2) if the Church once had the ability to declare and define definitively on matters of faith or morals, how could she have lost this ability in the East?

The only response to this argument I think I've seen yet is from , who said he sees no reason why this could not still be accomplished via a Council, without a pope. So the claim is that the East does retain the potency for dogmatic declaration. But if this is so, why in the thousand years since the schism has this not been effectively done? Why have no universal declarations been made that actually managed to unify the East and resolve serious matters of dispute? This may be an opportunity for you to educate me on examples of that very thing - but I'm not aware of it. Whereas the Church has continued throughout time, without difficulty, to do as she has always done, the East seems to have become a "dead Church", drawing only on what was defined while the East was still in communion with Rome, but declaring nothing definitive on their own. If this potency is truly had, why is it not used more effectively, when its use is so gravely needed? In other words, the state of the East at present is not reducible to mere jurisdictional disagreement - there is moral disagreement as well, and that is a big deal.

And even if it can be shown that this potency is indeed had and can, or has been, effectively employed, would it not nonetheless be the case that it is obviously much more difficult to accomplish this without a Pope? And if this is so, why should we imagine that Christ would have established His Church with an inferior mode of operation? Why not rather suppose that the consensus of the early Church is true: that the teaching authority was ultimate in the successor of Peter; that this successor could be appealed to in times of dispute; and that councils could be confirmed as doctrinal, and thus effective and binding, no matter what individual bishops felt about them, under this successor's authority?

The Church is both living (contra the Orthodox) and visible (contra Chiro's fork), and this only describes the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church referred to by the Creed.

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It was the advent of plastic condoms and the birth control pill that presented the need for an authoritative ruling on the morality of contraception. Catholics have this much-needed ruling in Humanae Vitae. The Orthodox have disagreement, and no universal ruling.

You’re making a bigger deal out of the “disagreement amongst Orthodox” about these issues than is warranted. The only so-called “Orthodox” groups who affirm the acceptability of things like contraceptives are modernists, who almost certainly disagree with Holy Tradition on other matters as well. It is common knowledge amongst Traditional Orthodox that such things are entirely unacceptable. The reason it appears otherwise is because jewish media gives a very loud bullhorn to any “Orthodox” who is willing to speak out against the Holy Tradition. A right-believing Bishop will excommunicate people who insist on living in sexual immorality like this. There hasn’t really been a need to clarify this issue, among the Orthodox.

Besides, we’re not seeing anything better from the Latin Communion in these regards. Sure, the Papacy takes a hard stand against hot-button issues, but why aren’t they doing the same thing about stuff like Liberation Theology, or rampant Modernism, or jewish subversion of traditionally White nations, human rights violation of actual Christians by the secular state of Israel? Why hasn’t the Pope excommunicated Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi? Etc etc. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s great the Papacy affirms the Traditional stance where it does, and that should indeed be praised. But by the same logic I could claim the lack of any stance by Rome against these issues is evidence they’re a “dead church”.

So the claim is that the East does retain the potency for dogmatic declaration. But if this is so, why in the thousand years since the schism has this not been effectively done? Why have no universal declarations been made that actually managed to unify the East and resolve serious matters of dispute?

The following is a list of post-schism Councils considered authoritative in the Orthodox Church:

Fourth Constantinople, 879 - the Photian Council (not technically post-schism, ratified by Rome for 200 years, then reneged post-schism)

Blachernae Council, 1285

Fifth Constantinople, 1341 (Palamite Councils)

Moldova Council, 1642 (Council of Jassy)

Jerusalem Council, 1672

pan-Orthodox Council in Constantinople, 1872 (the Phyletism Council).

The recent Pan-Orthodox Council in Crete (2016) has largely been rejected, but it shows every once in a while big groups from the traditionally Orthodox World still, to this day, hold shindigs.

So the claim the Orthodox haven’t been holding Councils doesn’t really stand. They aren’t “Ecumenical Councils”, because there’s no more Ecumene.

But I don’t even agree that the Life of a Church can be gauged in this manner.

The growth of the Church, in Orthodox understanding, is in the Lives of the Saints. Is the Church still producing Saints? The answer is an emphatic “yes - abundantly”.

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You’re making a bigger deal out of the “disagreement amongst Orthodox” about these issues than is warranted. The only so-called “Orthodox” groups who affirm the acceptability of things like contraceptives are modernists, who almost certainly disagree with Holy Tradition on other matters as well.

As an outsider, I observe the parallel here between the Orthodox tendency to call un-orthodox beliefs 'outside the Tradition' and the Catholic's tendency to do the same thing, even when it is ecumenical. A little ironically, it seems that what gives the Orthodox their name is just in the way they treat the unorthodox. Whereas the Orthodox are able to point at a group of more relative equals, which they think have become unequal, as if to say 'You don't have quorum', the Catholics are forced to look at the 'brain' of their organism and say, "Our brain is not thinking straight."

but why aren’t they doing the same thing about stuff like Liberation Theology, or rampant Modernism, or jewish subversion of traditionally White nations, human rights violation of actual Christians by the secular state of Israel?

This is a strong point. Peace, you are praising the ability of the Catholic Church to come to consensus on various issues, but it seems as if some of these 'modern' issues, say contraception, are fairly straightforward instances of traditional morals commuting across an unambiguous technological issue. Of course, there is value in that unity, but if the so-called modern issues which are being dealt with are small theological fish (so to speak) in a much larger pond of dangerous moral issues, about the latter of which the Church is silent, one might ask if these 'simpler' consensus omnia over condoms are not just clothes to give the appearance of unity.

I am getting the image of someone on the Titanic, after she had been struck, putting duck tape over a narrow fissure in the hull branching off from the main hole. Meanwhile he is just drinking the jet of incoming seawater. I've seen a couple of documentaries recently concerning the heterodoxy within the Catholic Church with respect to the tradition toward things like Satan and Hell, and that many modern Catholics accept that Hell is not a literal place, nor the devil a real being. That's in addition to confirmation of several modern scientistic 'myths'. So in one sense, there is a way in which the Catholic unification under singular leadership and teaching authority can be construed as a strength, but one way in which it can also be construed as a weakness. When others among the church lack the authority to initiate an organism-level response to a massive threat, it becomes like an immune system depending on one cell (the Pope). Of course, the Pope has access to others of high office, to their counsel and to the Church written tradition and magisterium itself. But what happens if a 'bad actor' or a series of them finds their way to that throne?

A concentration of power can also be a weakness. What I'm seeing suggested by King is that their Church might be better situated for an organism-level adaptation to adverse change. Of course, the tradeoff is that their Church as a whole is less stable (not having univocal leadership) to fragmentation. In some sense they can 'tolerate' a certain amount of heterodoxy (below some threshold level) and 'hold together'.

I see the tradeoffs of both. If I were to take a natural example as a model, I'd look at most of the higher animals and find they universally share in having developed central nervous systems, featuring something like brains in all cases. These bodies of trillions of cells are controlled in some respects by autonomous systems within the brain lacking consciousness (automatic functions), but the motion of the whole organism (its life history, if you will) comes from the conscious subjectivity which leads those bodies as the "I". This appears to be a feature of all higher life. We see processes I take as analogous to the Orthodox 'lack of Ecumene' as something characteristic of bacterial colonies which rely on quorum sensing (the diffusion of non-targeted messages by natural processes) to move together, as opposed to one brain.

I'm very inclined to look at God's creation for clues about what's best. The Logos can answer most questions, in my opinion.

This is why I am so naturally inclined toward Catholicism. I think the Ecumene is analogous to the brain. My dispute is with the attachment of a single belief to the office of Pope, which is that one equating him to Christ on earth. I would have no problem if the Church treated him as an elected supreme leader due to his holiness. I want to reject the divine trappings, for I believe what is divine in him is not what sets him apart, because that divine element is present equally in us all. So I say, set him apart for the relevant reasons and let him lead. The trouble comes from seeing this as a divine appointment and not just meritorious on the grounds of less high things - the 'divine right' concept and its cognates are precisely what make this form of authority so dangerous, whereas if he was looked at as 'the best and holiest man for the job', when things went bad it would not be nearly so controversial to boot them from their chair.

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But by the same logic I could claim the lack of any stance by Rome against these issues is evidence they’re a “dead church”.

I think you may have missed my point. I am not requiring that the Church act on all issues and with immediacy; I am trying to argue that, thanks to practice, we can be sure that the Catholic Church has the potency to act on these matters, while it is far less clear the East has this same potency, however conceivable it may be that they should. You say there is no disagreement, that only modernists who probably reject other parts of tradition affirm the morality of contraception - but from this it sounds like you are saying that the only way to trust in the authority of the East's position on such contemporary matters is to see what they say on other matters that are settled within the tradition, and basically infer from that that what they say on contemporary matters is wrong. But this is far beneath the level of clarity the faithful ought to have and for which the Church was instituted to provide, and so my point is that the Church ought to have, at least in potency, the ability to readily and clearly settle any such matters, but I just don't see that in the East.

Furthermore, I doubt any in the Orthodox community who support such false contemporary moral positions are so ubiquitous in their denial of tradition. Maybe a point here or there, but not the majority, and certainly not the whole thing. So to have to judge the truth of a moral pronouncement, which has not been formally addressed in the East that I know of, and does not seem to be readily addressable, given history, based on whether or not those pronouncing one way or another disagree or attempt to corrupt some points of the Tradition - this is just not an acceptable level of clarity befitting the Church's teaching authority. It must, in potency at least, be better than this. And if the East no longer acknowledge Rome as a recourse to settling disputes or discarding canons from councils once called, then I don't see that the argument that the East clearly possesses this potency actually stands, especially given that in a thousand years since the schism they have not, to my knowledge, effectively done so.

The following is a list of post-schism Councils considered authoritative in the Orthodox Church:

Thank you, this is the kind of list I was looking before. But note that I have just been asking about a list of councils that have been called - my question is to what extent have they succeeded at solving problems. Disputes almost inevitably arise in such councils, and my fear is that, absent a Pope with the highest temporal authority necessary to settle disputes, my suspicion is that councils would really just serve as a means to causing further schism in the East, the kind of schisms we still see today. Maybe I'm wrong about this hunch, but I intend to look into what is said of these councils and get back to you. Maybe schisms did not result - but were any disputed points universally accepted, or accepted by some here, rejected by others there? It is these kinds of issues that would lead me to suggest that the East does not actually possess the potency it claims.

One final point: you dodged my argument by claiming that only modernists who "probably reject" earlier tradition would take off-stances (let us say, unorthodox positions) on contemporary moral matters. I've provided my response to this already, but fine, let's take this as it is. There is still the matter about the teachings of the faith (since Church teaching authority is required to rule on matters of faith and morals) being disputed within the East. I already cited a former Orthodox, Timothy Flanders, on this point, who cites the wide range of views held within the East on matters pertaining to the dispersement of baptism. This does pertain to the faith and could readily affect one's salvation if mistaken. So which of the Orthodox churches is right about the sacraments? Could a council event solve this in theory / potency? If Russia has been teaching something for however-so-many years, and a Council were called today, to which Russia was invited, and basically decided that Russia is totally wrong about how they have approached this issue- then is Russia just going to walk away from that believing the outcome? Or is it going to dispute it? And will not this dispute lead to the very schism between Russia and Constantinople that exists today, and exists today for this very unsettled reason (among others)?

This is my point. It's messy when you look at contemporary morals, it's even messier when you look at the faith and the sacraments, and even if the East arguably has the potency to call councils, in theory and practice it seems that this potency is merely one to call, not one also to definitively resolve.

I will see what consequences and ckarity, or lack thereof, seem to have fallen out of the councils you cited.

Oh! But I wanted to mention first, w.r.t. the Fourth Council of Constantinople, that it is highly disputed the nature of the alleged papal ratification of that council - whether the Pope received accurate information, or even confirmed the entire council, versus certain points, etc.