> I don't care to debate the 'non-aggression' principle as it were, it serves as ample idle masturbatory distraction material for a hundred thousands others on the internet.
Okay.
> I am saying ethics and morality are an assertion of the act, but founded on the intent, independent of the abstract 'universal moral truth' of them. If we only examine outcomes, then we can justify any 'evil' as it were, by simply saying "as long as the outcomes are eventually good, then it doesnt matter what the intent was."
What is this 'universal moral truth' you keep on talking about? Who defines this? Where can I look it up? How do I measure this 'universal moral truth'?
> For example, without intent a happy accident where a man saves another man from a car crash that could have resulted in manslaughter, is ethically, indistinguishable. Focusing on outcomes and relation to the subjects involved, such as shooting an intruder versus shooting a wolf, doesn't tell us anything ethically, because outcomes exist in the future.
So what if it is ethically indistinguishable? Does the man that is alive care if you meant to save him or not, or is he just happy to be alive? Why is this distinction important at all?
> If everything we do is hypothetically good, because we only intended good, then regardless of the actual outcome, theres a rational disconnect between intent and outcome, and then there is no way to distinguish, from a naturalist perspective, what is 'good' or 'bad'.
What is this "naturalist perspective"? Naturalist perspective as opposed to what? What would a "non-naturalist perspective" actually be?
> We cant even say our outcomes, however intended, are good or bad, because the interpretation of said outcomes relies on who is in charge to interpret them. History is post-facto. The present is subject to the future yes, but the future emerges from the present.
If this is true, why would anything you wrote prior to this make sense or even be necessary to write? If it is up to the person watching the events to decide if they are good or bad regardless of outcome, why write any of what you wrote in your thread? What is the purpose of this?
What is this 'universal moral truth' you keep on talking about? Who defines this? Where can I look it up? How do I measure this 'universal moral truth'?
Exactly what I'm driving at!
So what if it is ethically indistinguishable? Does the man that is alive care if you meant to save him or not, or is he just happy to be alive? Why is this distinction important at all?
I don't ask what is 'important', only what is a 'useful' distinction.
What I am getting at is that, if there is no universal ethical standards, or if ethics is an evolving standard, that we build on over time, then looking at outcomes and how those involved are related, doesn't comparatively, tell us if a thing is by itself 'good' or 'bad' as it were. Whos it good for? The subject acting, or the subject acted upon? Depends on who the subject is, what is done, and who is acted upon, doesn't it? Its a big nasty mess. But if we take the easy route and say look at outcomes, then anything, on its own, can be justified. And so neither the act and its subjects, nor the outcome, are sufficient to say whether we may even begin to approach a determination of 'good' or 'bad'.
What is this "naturalist perspective"?
'Natural' in the sense of 'rational' and 'irrational': of, or arising from, human obvervation and reasoning upon nature and on the nature of how the world works.
What is the purpose of this?
Showerthoughts.
Fair enough, I thought this was fun. Thanks for posting.
You know, I spent a bunch of time in school and outside doing the philosophy and history thing. It wasn't until the last few years that I realized after listening to the nonsense Stephan Molyneux spews out that, while someone has to spend time going through the data processing / calculation on a specific topic and categorizing everything and then providing a framework on how to use what they categorized in this vertical of knowledge, it isn't useful most of the time.
History is not won by philosophers or moralists.
History is won by how many people we can kill that are in competition for resources that our kind needs.
Philosophers and moralists are what happens after the victory.
BUT! That was a fun write up. Okay I am starting to get what you wrote.
On the contrary, do you suppose the bolsheviks would have arose without trotsky? Or the national socialists without Nietzsche?
Obviously I nor almost anyone else here are even remotely within their league. But it is important, however small our part, to cultivate the mood or ground for those message-makers and mythwriters to emerge.
Unless you subscribe to the theory that those two powerful movements in history would have happened with or without their mythmakers, which is more than possible.
History is not won by philosophers. History is written by them though.
And sometimes in writing, they help to make it a self fulfilling prophecy, little by little.
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