Okay, I have a bit more time to try and answer. Too busy earlier. 1) The only possible conversation on the topic is this format: * You make a claim. * I make a claim. I didn't ask you to provide sources, I'm not going to be providing sources to you. I'm not your monkey, you can sing and dance all you want. Do your own research, this is only a conversation. 2) My thoughts on your points as follows: >>You want it to be false. Unfortunately, that's different than actually being false. Ditto in the inverse. >>You're saying that mining companies, battery manufacturers, and auto makers are all selling their products for less than it costs them to manufacture them. Where's the data? I want to see how much it costs Tesla to manufacture a lithium battery and their cars versus how much they retail them for. I'll take any battery supplier and automaker if you don't have specific data for Tesla. Do your own research. This is a conversation, not a collaboration to on a white paper. >>Can you show us unenlightened people how is electricity being subsidized? A link to the item(s) in a federal or state budget will suffice. Get fucked. Do your own research, I'm not your monkey. >>You're forgetting the tax breaks given to oil and gas production. If we're going to compare costs, you can't count subsidies on only one side. This is a good point. I've been meaning to put a site together to help pull together the total set of numbers and model some comparative scenarios. >>Which is far more efficient than millions of tiny little engines. Only true if you are close to the power plant. As soon as you go away from the power plant the powerline losses start to take over and this number becomes debatable especially when you consider the cost per hour of labour you need to include in a recharge cycle. Every car takes 3 minutes to fuel up, 80% on the best of current battery chemistry is about 30 minutes. >>Yes. Trying to make everything electric in 10 years is stupid. The infrastructure isn't ready yet. The market will work fine to supply electricity as demand increases as long as no idiots get in the way. This is simultaneously true and not true. Eminent domains exists as a direct example of the free market not being able to solve certain distribution problems in society. I would prefer that no eminent domain exists and that free market solve the problem, however, there are obvious tradeoffs and there are no ways to compare what the same scenario would look like if there were no concepts such as eminent domain. There are many such examples despite my idelogical predisposition toward pure capitalism being the only functional way to maximize price discovery calculation capacity and lower price discovery time frames. >>It's ridiculous because that's a ridiculous way of "fueling" electric cars. They only time you need to be charging quickly away from home is when you need to drive further than the car's range in a single day. How often do you drive 250+ miles a day? This is nonsense. The grid, from powerplant to the home, was built using a hodge podge of ad hoc duct taped regions and subsections with little to no capacity planning and where capacity planning was done regulatory oversight has so overburdened the energy marketplace such that the grid is barely managing to handle current consumption requirements. California has regular planed outages in a first world nation. The reality is this: If every car owner got a tesla and charged it over night you would fry the grid to a crisp. The grid is NOT built to scale up to replace icus in all car engines because the average home consumes a miniscule amount of energy per day relative to a car. Pushing a modern heavy car burdened with all of the safety equipment mandated by governments down the road consumes orders of magnitude more energy than homes do. Basically, if every person to get a new Tesla, you have only two options: * Rebuild ALL of the grid going up to the home to be able to handle the new nightly loads which will be orders of magnitude greater than previous home energy consumption. Rebuilding the entire power grid up to the home means running a whole bunch of new copper to the home. * Build new power charging stations and run MASSIVE amounts of coil to those stations necessary to recharge all the electric vehicles. Of the two options, new centralized regen stations are MASSIVELY less costly and more efficient to build than to rip out all the old copper from homes and condos and replace it with new copper. It's not even necessary to do the math on this, its obvious. But the math has been done, find it your self faggot. >>It sounds like you're trying to make a case against letting the market function. Are you a communist per chance? No, its a simple observation that the grid still has some slack in it and it can handle the parasitic load of a few arrogant Tesla owners. It's also an observation that you fuckers are just patsys in a modern rail road style pincer move to corner the market on the power grid business by pushing you guys to overload the grid and force governments into central planning mode where they will use eminent domain and other tools of the state to give new monopoly / oligopoly powers to new power producers that want in on where the real money is: billing per watt hours on a grid that was forced into an upgrade cycle by losers that aren't thinking about being the reliability of having our energy dependence being distributed. Your enthusiasm for technology blinds you to the full spectrum of consequences of going all electric.