Everything you wrote is false.
You want it to be false. Unfortunately, that's different than actually being false.
When you say cost, you mean to say direct cost at retail. If you take into account the total cost of producing the quantities of lithium ion batteries across the globe (and it is a global process), icus are WAAAAAAAAAAAAY cheaper in every possible cost dimension.
You're saying that mining companies, battery manufacturers, and auto makers are all selling their products for less than it costs them to manufacture them. Where's the data? I want to see how much it costs Tesla to manufacture a lithium battery and their cars versus how much they retail them for. I'll take any battery supplier and automaker if you don't have specific data for Tesla.
If the government were to stop subsidizing electricity, you would shit your pants at how expensive it would get.
Can you show us unenlightened people how is electricity being subsidized? A link to the item(s) in a federal or state budget will suffice.
You're forgetting the tax breaks given to oil and gas production. If we're going to compare costs, you can't count subsidies on only one side.
Your electric car is not an electric car. It is an icu, you have merely offloaded the power generation to a giant natural gas or hydro turbine far far away. You are literally driving a remote controlled icu.
Which is far more efficient than millions of tiny little engines.
The grid will never be powerful enough to juice up electric cars if they even get any significant percentage of the market share.
Yes. Trying to make everything electric in 10 years is stupid. The infrastructure isn't ready yet. The market will work fine to supply electricity as demand increases as long as no idiots get in the way.
There is a famous set of calculations online of how ridiculous it would be to replace a gas station with an industrial charging station that can dispense the amount of juice necessary to replace AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF DAILY ENERGY provided by gasing up cars.
It's ridiculous because that's a ridiculous way of "fueling" electric cars. They only time you need to be charging quickly away from home is when you need to drive further than the car's range in a single day. How often do you drive 250+ miles a day?
I would call you a sucker for not knowing what you are talking about. However, the reality here is that the rest of us are suckers because we allow parasites to extract value from us without properly adjusting for it.
It sounds like you're trying to make a case against letting the market function. Are you a communist per chance?
>It sounds like you're trying to make a case against letting the market function. Are you a communist per chance?
Only at your reading level. Read everything again slowly.
Only at your reading level. Read everything again slowly.
Perhaps the source of your confusion is founded in your inability to comprehend the implications of what you're saying. I'll lay it out for people who will understand. I'm pretty sure you will not. so don't worry if it doesn't make sense to you.
the reality here is that the rest of us are suckers because we allow parasites to extract value from us without properly adjusting for it.
The implication here is that customers purchasing electricity to charge an electric car are somehow leeching even though they're paying the same price for electricity that everyone else is. "Properly adjusting" is a euphamism for tracking how people use the electricity they buy and penalizing them for using it in ways not pre-approved by the central planning committee.
I can see how might be inclined to want to read into the statement.
My preference is to allow the free market to calculate the price rates and negotiate the upgrades of the grid as necessary. There are a few problems to this:
A free market pushes price discover down to the consumer level. This is the right level at which price discovery belongs, however, consumers are neither trained in the negotiation skills necessary to negotiate with sharks doing this work nor are they interested in all the additional work necessary to get this done effectively. Basically, most citizens want this done at the government level because in their minds they hire politicians to do stuff like this for them. Citizens want to go to work, come home, cook a meal and offload management of civilization to other layers of society.
Next, I cannot imagine ripping out the power grid to the home and running all new copper to provide the new power requirements. Not only that, I don't even know how you can do proper future proofing for this given that we cannot project what other new miraculous technologies will be born that will be sucking power out of the outlet at the home overnight. Perhaps the next stage beyond a Tesla is a AI robot that does all the work on your house or something? I don't see how it would be feasable to actually replace the entire grid with a new one to the home even if we wanted to.
However, what we can do is create a bunch of supercharger locations that have the massive amounts of copper necessary to recharge all of the electric cars at a rate equal to the energy dispenses by current gas stations. The numbers are still proposterous but nowhere near as absurd as upgrading the entire to the home grid.
Instead, here is what is happening:
You guys are being pushed by people that now the numbers to buy electric cars and saturate the grid. They want you guys to push the grid over its capacities and force governments to do something about this. This will mean a hodge podge of bullshit solutions with monopolies and oligoplolies provided to the usual suspects.
As well, they already know the numbers at the international level. This is why Agenda 23 has that whole thing about "you will own nothing and be happy" and the whole "no private property" and "move all humans into approved habitation zones". The reason those exist from a grand planning perspective is because those that do the math know that you cannot upgrade the whole to home grid to power all electric cars. They already know that. Instead, what they think they will be doing is super concentrating humans into giant cities and force people to give up cars altogether and force them onto mass transportation because (theoretically) that is far more energy efficient than having a bunch of tiny icus or 100s of millions of teslas sipping on current at the home.
In other words, we aren't getting electric cars. It isn't possible given current knowledge of physics relative to already sunk investments in infrastructure vs current debt loads globally vs needed investment.
And so we roll on toward a grand communist bullshit scheme because people like you claim nonsense about electric cars being viable when they really aren't in the big picture.
I want them to become viable. I want communists to lose BIG TIME. I want something like a super capacitor at four times the power density of current Tesla battery pack, at half the weight or less depending on the application and half the cost or less hopefully in pure solid state form so it lasts a long time.
The first person to figure that one out maximizes human freedom, maximizes capitalisams potential, distributes the power amongst the most people and becomes the richest person the world has ever seen.
Or the most dead person, because no military would ever let that technology get in the hands of the opposing military.
Right.
Read everything I wrote again.
This time slower.
You will get it.
Okay, I have a bit more time to try and answer. Too busy earlier.
1) The only possible conversation on the topic is this format:
You make a claim.
I make a claim.
I didn't ask you to provide sources, I'm not going to be providing sources to you. I'm not your monkey, you can sing and dance all you want.
Do your own research, this is only a conversation.
2) My thoughts on your points as follows:
>You want it to be false. Unfortunately, that's different than actually being false.
Ditto in the inverse.
>You're saying that mining companies, battery manufacturers, and auto makers are all selling their products for less than it costs them to manufacture them. Where's the data? I want to see how much it costs Tesla to manufacture a lithium battery and their cars versus how much they retail them for. I'll take any battery supplier and automaker if you don't have specific data for Tesla.
Do your own research. This is a conversation, not a collaboration to on a white paper.
>Can you show us unenlightened people how is electricity being subsidized? A link to the item(s) in a federal or state budget will suffice.
Get fucked. Do your own research, I'm not your monkey.
>You're forgetting the tax breaks given to oil and gas production. If we're going to compare costs, you can't count subsidies on only one side.
This is a good point. I've been meaning to put a site together to help pull together the total set of numbers and model some comparative scenarios.
>Which is far more efficient than millions of tiny little engines.
Only true if you are close to the power plant. As soon as you go away from the power plant the powerline losses start to take over and this number becomes debatable especially when you consider the cost per hour of labour you need to include in a recharge cycle. Every car takes 3 minutes to fuel up, 80% on the best of current battery chemistry is about 30 minutes.
>Yes. Trying to make everything electric in 10 years is stupid. The infrastructure isn't ready yet. The market will work fine to supply electricity as demand increases as long as no idiots get in the way.
This is simultaneously true and not true. Eminent domains exists as a direct example of the free market not being able to solve certain distribution problems in society. I would prefer that no eminent domain exists and that free market solve the problem, however, there are obvious tradeoffs and there are no ways to compare what the same scenario would look like if there were no concepts such as eminent domain.
There are many such examples despite my idelogical predisposition toward pure capitalism being the only functional way to maximize price discovery calculation capacity and lower price discovery time frames.
>It's ridiculous because that's a ridiculous way of "fueling" electric cars. They only time you need to be charging quickly away from home is when you need to drive further than the car's range in a single day. How often do you drive 250+ miles a day?
This is nonsense. The grid, from powerplant to the home, was built using a hodge podge of ad hoc duct taped regions and subsections with little to no capacity planning and where capacity planning was done regulatory oversight has so overburdened the energy marketplace such that the grid is barely managing to handle current consumption requirements.
California has regular planed outages in a first world nation.
The reality is this: If every car owner got a tesla and charged it over night you would fry the grid to a crisp.
The grid is NOT built to scale up to replace icus in all car engines because the average home consumes a miniscule amount of energy per day relative to a car. Pushing a modern heavy car burdened with all of the safety equipment mandated by governments down the road consumes orders of magnitude more energy than homes do.
Basically, if every person to get a new Tesla, you have only two options:
Rebuild ALL of the grid going up to the home to be able to handle the new nightly loads which will be orders of magnitude greater than previous home energy consumption. Rebuilding the entire power grid up to the home means running a whole bunch of new copper to the home.
Build new power charging stations and run MASSIVE amounts of coil to those stations necessary to recharge all the electric vehicles.
Of the two options, new centralized regen stations are MASSIVELY less costly and more efficient to build than to rip out all the old copper from homes and condos and replace it with new copper.
It's not even necessary to do the math on this, its obvious. But the math has been done, find it your self faggot.
>It sounds like you're trying to make a case against letting the market function. Are you a communist per chance?
No, its a simple observation that the grid still has some slack in it and it can handle the parasitic load of a few arrogant Tesla owners. It's also an observation that you fuckers are just patsys in a modern rail road style pincer move to corner the market on the power grid business by pushing you guys to overload the grid and force governments into central planning mode where they will use eminent domain and other tools of the state to give new monopoly / oligopoly powers to new power producers that want in on where the real money is: billing per watt hours on a grid that was forced into an upgrade cycle by losers that aren't thinking about being the reliability of having our energy dependence being distributed.
Your enthusiasm for technology blinds you to the full spectrum of consequences of going all electric.
I'm not going to be providing sources to you.
Welp, that settles it then.
The reality is this: If every car owner got a tesla and charged it over night you would fry the grid to a crisp.
If you did that overnight it sure would. I'd like to see automakers build 300 million electric cars in one day.
billing per watt hours on a grid that was forced into an upgrade cycle by losers that aren't thinking about being the reliability of having our energy dependence being distributed.
It's like you don't understand the economics of decentralized power production. I can buy all the batteries and equipment I need to keep my home and cars fully powered all year long for about $20,000 today. That includes days of cloudy weather and running my 5-ton central air in the summer. I won't need a fucking grid for shit. The only reason I don't do it is because the economics aren't there, yet. That's a huge constraint on power utilities that want to pinch the market. They have enough room to increase electricity about 25% here and then all hell will break loose with people cutting the cord on power just like they did with cable TV.
>Welp, that settles it then.
This is a conversation. Not a debate. We aren't writing a white paper to prove anything. I think you are wrong, you disagree.
Big deal.
>If you did that overnight it sure would. I'd like to see automakers build 300 million electric cars in one day.
It would be interesting to measure the rate at which the parasitic load grows relative to grid capacity and at what point over capacity does the parasitic load create so much difficulty for consumers that they force the government to take drastic action.
Perhaps there is a parasitic load rate that can incentivize a grid upgrade in a way that is fundable.
I just don't see it at all.
> I can buy all the batteries and equipment I need to keep my home and cars fully powered all year long for about $20,000 today. That includes days of cloudy weather and running my 5-ton central air in the summer. I won't need a fucking grid for shit. The only reason I don't do it is because the economics aren't there, yet. That's a huge constraint on power utilities that want to pinch the market. They have enough room to increase electricity about 25% here and then all hell will break loose with people cutting the cord on power just like they did with cable TV.
Sure, multiply that by ALL of the homes in the country and the grid goes poof. You cannot accomodate that capacity growth with the current grid. A car consumers orders of magnitude more power than a home, it's not even comparable.
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